The Magnificent Eleven

Yonks ago, I posted a combined checklist for the 1967 & 1968 Topps Baseball Discs, which also included the lesser known '67 San Francisco Giants Discs.  The two '67 sets (spoiler alert-go to the end of this post for "connected-ness")  have 24 subjects each, while the 1968 set has 28.  None of these were actually ever issued, they were all just proofs and internal materials runs for what was almost certainly an aborted set of Baseball Buttons.

There were 11 players who appeared in both the 1967 and 1968 all star sets, including Willie Mays who also was featured in the SF Giants set in addition to the two "regular" ones.  Willie in fact has more appearances in vintage Topps "oddball" sets than any other player of the time, but I digress. Other than those 11, (and Juan Marichal -- a yellow background in the SF Giants set and who was not a '68 subject) everybody else appeared in only one of the three sets, making the determination of the year of issue for the majority of subjects fairly easy.  As it turns out, there are enough differences between the 1967 and '68 common subjects to allow a further parsing of who and when.

First, let's look at this 1968 uncut sheet of 28 1968 Discs offered by Huggins & Scott some time ago-a thing of beauty it is:

Here is the rundown of differences, showing the 1967 disc for each against the '68 sheet above for comparison. Some are hard to differentiate while others are quite easy, as you will see below.

Hank Aaron 1967-No Cap; 1968-Cap:

Orlando Cepeda 1967-No Cap; 1968-Cap:

Roberto Clemente 1967-A small bit of white shows through the "O" in "Bob" and the middle and bottom bars of the last "E" in his name do not extend into the blue background, leaving a small bit of white uniform showing; 1968-No white shows in the "O" and the middle and bottom bars of the last "E" touch the extreme edge of his uniform, leaving no white before the blue background picks up. I will show a '68 (Howard Chasser's I believe) below the '67 as the difference is slight. Ignore the color differences, those are just scan-related I'd say:

Frank Howard 1967-last letter of last name "D" extends into the red background; 1968-"D" is on the uniform shoulder:

Mickey Mantle: 1967-OF; 1968-1B:

Willie Mays 1967: San Fran. Giants set (shown): bust looks straight at you on yellow background, 1967 Regular Looks Left "F" in OF is on uniform shoulder with blue background; 1968 Looks Left (same pose as '67), "F" is into blue background:

Brooks Robinson 1967-faces left; 1968-faces right:

Frank Robinson "1967-the"OF" "O" is all on the white uniform shoulder ; 1968-half of the "O" is in the red background

Ron Santo 1967-"C" in Cubs is touching his hat; 1968-"C" is clear of the hat:

Joe Torre 1967-"O" in "Joe" intersects with uniform trim; 1968-"O" is above trim

Carl Yastrzemski 1967- the "R" in "Red Sox" bleeds into the hat; 1968-the"R" is clear of the hat with red showing:

The Clemente, Frank Robinson, Santo and Torre are particularly hard to tell apart. Howard and especially Yaz are a little easier.

As for 1967, we know the Giants set is from that year (or at least the proof run) as it shares shiny space with the regular set:

Neat, huh?!

Before The Buttons

Friend o' the Archive Keith Olbermann recently passed along three very interesting and enlightening scans of some Topps mockup are related to the "1967" and "1968" Baseball Discs.  You will recall, dear reader that there were three "sets"of these "produced", two of MLB All-Stars and one solely of San Francisco Giants.  In reality I think the first two were, at least in the case of the All Stars, a series of proofs produced for a set that never saw the light of Sheepshead Bay.

The dating accepted by the hobby on these is suspect and my take is that the "1967" set was begun after the end of the regular season in '66 and then the "1968" set came around not too long after in 1967, probably updated for player selection. The SF Giants set I believe is more related to the Red Sox and Pirates Stickers that actually were sold to the public in 1967. What Mr. Olbermann has sent looks like mock up art for what would have been a series of Baseball Buttons.  Remember too, that in 1956 Topps released a set with that exact name, containing 60 subjects. Ten years later it must have looked ripe for revisitation.

Check it out:

OK, left to right we have Carlton Willey, Jim Bouton, Norm Cash, Ron Perranoski and Dick Radatz. One household name and I guess Bouton was a real live one still when this was first developed, but this box art is typical mockup in that it seems like Topps used photos lying around the art den to create it. Some pictures had already been used on cards, others were fresh.  The Bouton is an example that was taken from a card:

Here's Dean Chance, a hot pitcher for awhile:

Looks a bit like a whoopee cushion, doesn't it?!

Mr. O has the artwork dated from 1963-64. Here it was enhanced with descriptors circling around Bob Veale's scowling mug. I have to think this particular one came after the Chance and other box art was created as it's closer to the (almost) finished product.

The mockup art apparently originated with Bill Haber. I think the "discs" originated from Woody Gelman.  Here's what must have been close to the finished products, from "1968":

 

I'm not sure why the set got killed but possibly due to US Customs duty assessments being higher for toys vs. novelties. It also could have tested poorly. I don't think we'll ever know.

As seen with other sets, the two or three year time frame from mockup to execution is not exceptional. Too bad it never got released, I love the 1956 Baseball Buttons and these would have been just as nice and apparently a little bit larger.

Slipped Discs

We are going to (almost) wrap up the Topps Baseball Discs folks but a funny thing happened on the way to this post-I discovered the 1967's were probably proofed and printed up in late 1966. This follows a pattern found with the 1967 Punchouts, another set that went through what seems like a two year proofing process. The 68 Discs in turn look to have been proofed in 1967.

The 1967 set is comprised of 24 subjects and is sometime known as the "Silver Foil" set as the waste area beyond the circle with the player photo and information is silver reflective paper. Almost certainly designed to be pinbacks, these were to have been manufactured in Japan from Topps artwork and then imported into the US, a key bit of detail we will return to later.

A full proof sheet of 67's is known, although it has almost certainly been cut up:



Here is a '67 Mays:



You can clearly see the word JAPAN in the upper left quadrant. The back looks like this:



The '67 San Francisco Giants team discs also have the same back. The 1968 Discs, which add four subject to the mix for a total of 28, can be found with both Silver Foil and Plain White backgrounds, the latter of which usually sometimes have a horizontal fold that may indicate a sheet being saved by a dumpster diver of decades past.

Here is a Silver Foil '68 from the collection of Bob Fisk:



I am not sure if the back is the same brown cardboard found on the 67's but suspect it is. That's one of the things about the 68's-they are appreciably rarer than the 67's, despite what PSA and Beckett say and I have not been able to find scans of either a full proof sheet nor all of the individual discs from 1968. As you will see below, they have the JAPAN notation as well.

Having said that, the Monday disc really convinces me the All Stars were designed to be one set issued in 1967 as the A's were still in KC that year. The 68's should really be thought of as a second run of proofs. There's a little more on the production cycle further below but I will continue to use the commonly accepted dates for these two sets.

Here is a '68 Alley I have shown previously, front:



And back (look closely):



A few progressive proofs are known for the 68's. Here is a scan of a Cepeda series from that year I nabbed from Ebay:



Compare those and the Alley above to a very interesting Cepeda scan from an unknown source that looks to have had a thin plastic film overlaid in addition to a ring showing where the pin would be cropped. The clear overlay seems to have stripped off in spots. Note the fold line is similar to the one on Alley and JAPAN would have been rolled over the rim and oriented correctly on the reverse of the pin:



I will warn you that the next scan is a fake, merely a fantasy concoction sometimes sold on Ebay but it gives a good idea of what a completed pin or button would have looked like, using a '67 Torre:



Here is a combined list of both 67's and the 68's and you can see that only one player, Willie Mays, appears in all three disc sets:

1967	AS	AARON	HANK
1968	AS	AARON	HANK
1968	AS	ALLEN	RICHIE
1968	AS	ALLEY	GENE
1967	SFG	ALOU	JESUS
1967	SFG	BOLIN	BOB
1967	SFG	BROWN	OLLIE
1967	AS	CALLISON	JOHNNY
1967	AS	CAMPANERIS	BERT
1967	AS	CARDENAS	LEO
1968	AS	CAREW	ROD
1967	AS	CEPEDA	ORLANDO
1968	AS	CEPEDA	ORLANDO
1968	AS	CHANCE	DEAN
1967	AS	CLEMENTE	ROBERTO
1968	AS	CLEMENTE	ROBERTO
1967	SFG	DAVENPORT	JIM
1968	AS	DAVIS	TOMMY
1967	SFG	FRANKS	HERMAN
1968	AS	FREEHAN	BILL
1968	AS	FREGOSI	JIM
1967	SFG	GABRIELSON	LEN
1967	SFG	GIBBON	JOE
1967	SFG	HALLER	TOM
1968	AS	HARGAN	STEVE
1967	SFG	HART	JIM RAY
1967	SFG	HERBEL	RON
1967	AS	HOWARD	FRANK
1968	AS	HOWARD	FRANK
1967	AS	JONES	CLEON
1968	AS	KALINE	AL
1968	AS	KILLEBREW	HARMON
1967	AS	KNOOP	BOBBY
1967	AS	KOUFAX	SANDY
1967	SFG	LANIER	HAL
1967	SFG	LINZY	FRANK
1967	AS	MANTLE	MICKEY
1968	AS	MANTLE	MICKEY
1967	AS	MARICHAL	JUAN
1967	SFG	MARICHAL	JUAN
1967	AS	MAYS	WILLIE
1967	SFG	MAYS	WILLIE
1967	SFG	MAYS	WILLIE	FOR MAYOR
1968	AS	MAYS	WILLIE
1968	AS	McCORMICK	MIKE
1967	SFG	McCOVEY	WILLIE
1967	SFG	McDANIEL	LINDY
1967	AS	McDOWELL	SAM
1967	AS	McLAIN	DENNY
1968	AS	MONDAY	RICK
1967	AS	MORGAN	JOE
1967	AS	OLIVA	TONY
1968	AS	OSTEEN	CLAUDE
1967	SFG	PERRY	GAYLORD
1968	AS	PETERS	GARY
1967	SFG	PETERSON	CAP
1967	AS	POWELL	BOOG
1967	SFG	PRIDDY	BOB
1967	AS	ROBINSON	BROOKS
1968	AS	ROBINSON	BROOKS
1967	AS	ROBINSON	FRANK
1968	AS	ROBINSON	FRANK
1967	AS	ROMANO	JOHNNY
1968	AS	ROSE	PETE
1967	AS	SANTO	RON
1968	AS	SANTO	RON
1968	AS	STAUB	RUSTY
1967	AS	TORRE	JOE
1968	AS	TORRE	JOE
1968	AS	VEALE	BOB
1967	AS	YASTRZEMSKI	CARL
1968	AS	YASTRZEMSKI	CARL
1967	SFG	HAPPINESS IS A GIANT WIN
1967	SFG	I LOVE THE GIANTS
1967	SFG	LET'S GO GIANTS
1967	SFG	SF GIANTS	LOGO

In order to simplify matters, here is another list showing just the All Stars from both years with their team affiliations. Eleven players appear in both sets and a further post will try to differentiate years for these players as I do not have scans for all the doubled up 68's. I'll also show how the photos used on the discs tie in to the 1967 Punchouts and 1968 Baseball Plaks Checklists among other things when that post gets written.

1967 AND 1968 ALL STARS COMPARED (52 TOTAL)
AARON	HANK	BRAVES	67	68
ALLEN	RICHIE	PHILLIES		68
ALLEY	GENE	PIRATES		68
CALLISON	JOHNNY	PHILLIES	67
CAMPANERIS	BERT	ATHLETICS	67
CARDENAS	LEO	REDS	67
CAREW	ROD	TWINS		68
CEPEDA	ORLANDO	CARDINALS	67	68
CHANCE	DEAN	TWINS		68
CLEMENTE	ROBERTO	PIRATES	67	68
DAVIS	TOMMY	METS *		68
FREEHAN	BILL	TIGERS		68
FREGOSI	JIM	ANGELS		68
HARGAN	STEVE	INDIANS		68
HOWARD	FRANK	SENATORS	67	68
JONES	CLEON	METS	67
KALINE	AL	TIGERS		68
KILLEBREW	HARMON	TWINS		68
KNOOP	BOBBY	ANGELS	67
KOUFAX	SANDY	DODGERS	67
MANTLE	MICKEY	YANKEES	67	68
MARICHAL	JUAN	GIANTS	67
MAYS	WILLIE	GIANTS	67	68
McCORMICK	MIKE	GIANTS		68
McDOWELL	SAM	INDIANS	67
McLAIN	DENNY	TIGERS	67
MONDAY	RICK	ATHLETICS		68
MORGAN	JOE	ASTROS	67
OLIVA	TONY	TWINS	67
OSTEEN	CLAUDE	DODGERS		68
PETERS	GARY	WHITE SOX		68
POWELL	BOOG	ORIOLES	67
ROBINSON	BROOKS	ORIOLES	67	68
ROBINSON	FRANK	ORIOLES	67	68
ROMANO	JOHNNY	WHITE SOX **	67
ROSE	PETE	REDS		68
SANTO	RON	CUBS	67	68
STAUB	RUSTY	ASTROS		68
TORRE	JOE	BRAVES	67	68
VEALE	BOB	PIRATES		68
YASTRZEMSKI	CARL	RED SOX	67	68

* Tommy Davis should be with the Mets in the '68 set as he would be the only one in that set and each team has at least one representative. He was traded by the Mets to the White Sox on 12/15/67. See further comments below on last possible production date.

** Johnny Romano was traded from the White Sox to the Cardinals on 12/14/66. This indicates the first batch of proofs were almost certainly prepared prior to that date.

The production cycle for both sets looks to have less than a full year as the A's were given permission to move to Oakland by the American League on 10/18/67. A set that was in process in December of 1966 was certainly intended for release at the start of the '67 baseball season in any event and would seemingly have concluded production by the time the A's were given the go ahead to relocate just after the end of the 1967 World Series.

If you are counting teams the AL and NL had 12 discs each in the 67 All Stars and 14 in the 68's, color coded Red (AL) and Blue (NL). As noted above with the 1968 Tommy Davis Disc, each team had at least one player in each set. In 1967 the Orioles had a total of three players shown in the AL and the Braves and Giants each had an extra representative on the NL side. In 1968 The Orioles and Tigers each had an extra man while the Twins had two more than most. The '68 NL squad had the Braves and Giants again with an extra player each and the Pirates had a surplus of two. I am calling the players All Stars but it doesn't mean they made the mid-season classic in '66, some guys did it before, during and after that season. A few were only one time All Stars and the "scrubinee" player selection seems a bit odd. Perhaps more players would have been added later.

So with all this effort,what happened, why did the pin sets never materialize? Well, I found an old reference to import duty suit filed by Topps to try to have the pins classified as "buttons" vs their being labeled "novelties" (don't quote me on that, I may have it reversed). I lost the link but seem to recall a 10% import duty for one category vs 35% on the other hanging in the balance. I believe Topps finally lost the case in 1971 and have to think the difference in nomenclature was enough to kill any potential profit margin on products imported from Japan for sale in the US under the more expensive duty assessment. If I find the link again, I'll post it down the road.

Topps had produced metal coin inserts in 1964 and would do so again in 1971, presumably in the US, so I wonder if this was an attempt on their part to manufacture certain items more cheaply in Japan. I believe a couple of non-sports pin sets were made in Japan around this time but would have to dig a bit to determine which ones.

If you have any 1968 disc scans of any of the eleven repeated players, please send 'em along!

San Francisco Treat

Last time out I took a look at the 1967 Pirates and Red Sox Stickers that Topps was marketing to see if team-oriented products would sell. Obviously the answer was no but the stickers were well made and thought out. So well thought out that there was, in fact, a third team oriented set on the drawing board in '67. Some background is in order first though.

Most oddball Topps collectors are familiar with the little 2 1/4" diameter "discs", or "silver paper"" proofs that were intended to be made into pin sets. The plan was for them to be manufactured in Japan and then imported into the US. The two All Star sets are fairly well known, generally referred to as 1967 (24 subjects) and 1968 (28 subjects) issues, with the 68's being quite rare (not that the 67's are easy, mind you). Here is a look at one of each, '67 first:



The scan does the waste area an injustice-it is shiny and foil-like and the reason for the "silver paper" moniker. Here is a 1968 Disc:



I'll save details for the next post but the 68's can be found in various states of production with different backgrounds to boot.

Going back a year, in '67 Topps also produced proofs for a 24 pin San Francisco Giants team set that greatly resembled the two sticker sets from that year. Here is a disc of SF manager Herman Franks:



We again have a "silver foil" background with an incomplete color process (Herman would be green on the final proof run). By the way, Franks had a strange career as player and manager, showing almost a pattern of punctuated equilibrium in his playing and managerial records. He even managed to hit for a career average below the Mendoza Line.

A look at the full set reveals the similarities to the Red Sox and Pirates stickers on this scan I probably nailed from a major auction catalog:



Just look at the bottom right corner where there are five "fun" discs that mirror similar mirthful fare in the sticker sets. Since the set is only sporadically checklisted in the major hobby references, here is the full lineup of Giants discs:

ALOU	JESUS
BOLIN	BOB
BROWN	OLLIE
DAVENPORT	JIM
FRANKS	HERMAN
GABRIELSON	LEN
GIBBON	JOE
HALLER	TOM
HART	JIM RAY
HERBEL	RON
LANIER	HAL
LINZY	FRANK
MARICHAL	JUAN
MAYS	WILLIE
McCOVEY	WILLIE
McDANIEL	LINDY
PERRY	GAYLORD
PETERSON	CAP
PRIDDY	BOB
HAPPINESS IS A GIANT WIN
I LOVE THE GIANTS
LET'S GO GIANTS
SAN FRANCISCO GIANTS LOGO
WILLIE MAYS FOR MAYOR

At least one color process proof is also know, although I think this was from a different auction:



Unlike the stickers, the SF Giants discs were never sold at retail and are very difficult to find these days. I count four hall of famers in the set and you also have the extra Willie Mays for Mayor disc to make sure a bunch of high end items end up on HOF collectors wantlists. Too bad these never made it to the store shelves.