Showing posts with label Series Preview Theory. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Series Preview Theory. Show all posts

Tuesday, April 15, 2014

Award Season

The 1972 baseball season was a strange one. It started off with the first ever player's strike (an event I have no memory of, despite being a 10 year old with great interest in the sport), saw a team move from DC to Arlington, Texas (the Rangers), resulted in Curt Flood winning his reserve clause lawsuit against Major League Baseball and ended with Charlie Finley's mustachioed Oakland A's taking the first of three straight World Series titles. And after it all ended, the American league decided to adopt the Designated Hitter rule.

It was also the year that Topps went public and, to my mind, the last year in their insane stretch of innovation and creativity that commenced in 1965.  Following the IPO Topps would become a different company, as the Shorin family ceded some control of the firm they had founded in 1938. This resulted in a tamping down of production costs beginning in 1973 and a corresponding slowdown in insert and supplemental sets, especially those that required licensing from the four major sports leagues.

Surely the result of a cost/benefit analysis, in 1972 Topps dropped inserts from their four main sports lines and produced no ancillary sets to speak of, although their Canadian licensee O-Pee-Chee did manage to repurpose some older designs into inserts.  Even their non sport offerings were mostly reissues of older offerings in '72 so it's clear the IPO had taken corporate attention away from production and design matters. But before that all happened, Topps managed to design, produce one of their greatest sets of baseball cards, the psychedelic 1972's.



Without the benefit of inserts, Topps had to get more creative than usual.  They upped the set count to a whopping 787, their largest to date and even for almost another decade into the future.  Printed in six runs, Topps finally utilized all of their 792 slots by eschewing double printing of player cards, although their extra printing of each checklist from the next series with the prior would continue, hence the five "open" slots to bring the count to 792.

In actuality, they had abandoned their prior practice of "lagging" each series on the corresponding press sheet to create seven series over only six sheets in 1971.  Their use of true double printed rows of cards on each press sheet enabled them to do this.  1970 was the last year with a 7th series and it may have become too much of a bother for them to keep doing this as they still had to get out seven series worth of packaging updates, promotional and sales materials, instead of only six.

In 1972, just like the year prior, the first press sheet, corresponding to series 1, would also include a 2nd series checklist. This practice was followed through the fifth press sheet, which contained the 6th series checklist along with the 5th. The sixth press sheet in 1972 does not have any checklists as no further series were to come. Topps did this to preview the next series and stimulate sales.  Sneaky, sneaky....and also the last year a true high number series was issued as 1973 used only five press sheets to issue all 660 cards, which were also released en masse is some areas. And if you don't have the full run, you know how tough and expensive the 1972 highs can be compared to the rest of the set.  If you collect football from this year, the high numbers are even more ridiculous.  Topps clearly was scaling back their last series cards in both sports in '72.

So with 781 numbers to fill out, or over 32 numbers per team, Topps had to really put some thought into their 1972 set.  We'll get back to them momentarily but the first thing they did was issue 72 "In Action" cards, which replicated players but utilized game action photos.



These were likely culled from the many unused action shots taken for the 1971 set, the first to feature on field play instead of posed player shots. The backs of the "In Action" cards had various graphics.  Some advertised what was coming:




As noted on the cards above, there were the usual league leader and playoff/World Series cards, which took another 21 slots but those Series 3 and 4 special  cards were only writeups on the backs of the "In Action" cards.  Ditto the puzzles in Series 5 & 6.  Then you have a team card and at least one rookie card for each franchise.  Still not enough?  Let's put 7 Traded cards in the high numbers (ever notice they only issued traded cards in even numbered years during their heyday?) and then the ballyhooed "Boyhood Photos of the Stars", 17 in number.



Well, six more slots must have needed filling because Topps included a half dozen of the strangest cards they ever issued, namely the "Awards" cards in the semi-high series.



 

As a kid I was fascinated by these award cards, although they were treated with disdain by pretty much everybody else at the time. Today, they are not too popular except in the graded card set registries.

I'm going to call it here-this is the last great baseball set Topps put out.

Thursday, December 29, 2011

Who Ya Callin' Short?!

The earliest piece of true hobby research I ever pulled off was in the early 1980's, when I sussed out a black & white picture in an old hobby magazine of a 1967 Topps high number sheet.  I did this because the accompanying article mentioned it showed the Brooks Robinson card (at the time thought of as the ne plus ultra of all short prints) as a double print on the sheet.  Well, I thought to myself, that's odd, and then with the help of a magnifying glass and a team checklist book, pieced together all 132 cards on the sheet and then typed it all up (yes, on an ancient device called a typewriter) and tucked my schematic away.  I am glad I did that as I lost the original picture sometime later, although I have since found other examples of it, like so:







































That is described as the "B" sheet, which means it was on the right side of the full 264 card sheet; the "A" sheet would have been to the left, although I think they were actually printed in a horizontal orientation.  Pay attention now, there will be a quiz at the end and you will have to use math! After years of relative stability in their printing patterns, Topps started mucking around with things in 1967 (Edit 5/29/19-looks like starting in 1965). Counting from 1961, the first year of expansion in baseball, their set lengths were 587, 598, 576, 587, 598, 598 again (1966), then 609, before dropping back to 598 in 1968, the final year before another MLB expansion would occur and set sizes would grow beyond anything ever seen before.

Topps also had consistently printed additional cards on each press sheet when compared to the checklist cards in this period, thereby giving the purchaser some cards from the next series plus the checklist card for the following series (in what was technically the prior series pack) and ensnaring their young consumers in a ceaseless march to the last series of the year where the extra cards and checklists would elegantly resolve.  But in 1967 they changed how they did this and also went over the 600 mark for some reason, which is not entirely clear and was not supported by their being more teams or players. The was also a distribution problem with the 1967 high numbers and many locales did not receive them, especially west of the Mississippi River. Add it all up and you have a recipe for scarcity.

Now, getting back to the uncut high number sheet.  While the above scan is truncated at top and bottom, if you count the descending rows and use DP for double print and SP for single print, you can label them as: DP1, DP2, DP3, DP4, DP5, DP1, SP1, SP2, DP2, DP3, DP4, DP5. The odd placement of the two SP rows has always caught my eye and led me to think something was afoot but eventually I forgot about this happenstance.

Well we have to jump ahead a few years, to when I found a list of 1967 high number DP's in The SCD/Standard Catalog of Baseball Cards. They had DP's where I had SP's.  I then checked one of the Beckett books and found their list did not mesh with mine either.  I e-mailed Beckett and got a response that their DP listings had been created by direct observation of a (possibly partial) uncut sheet.  The source of SCD's listing was never revealed to me but it seems now it was based upon tabulation data and not an uncut sheet.  It was clear though that Beckett had access to a sheet that was different than the one I had sketched out.  So I created a spreadsheet to show all the possibilities and came up with something quite interesting:


SUBJECT B SHEET SCD BECKETT
531 7TH SERIES CHECKLIST DP
534 BAUER SP DP DP
535 CLENDENON
536 CUBS ROOKIES (J. NIEKRO)
537 ESTRADA DP DP
538 MARTIN
539 EGAN SP DP DP
540 CASH
541 GIBBON
542 A'S ROOKIES (MONDAY) SP DP DP
543 SCHNEIDER
544 INDIANS TEAM
545 GRANT
546 WOODWARD
547 RED SOX ROOKIES SP DP DP
548 GONZALEZ DP DP
549 SANFORD
550 PINSON DP DP
551 CAMILLI DP DP
552 SAVAGE SP
553 YANKEES ROOKIES SP
554 RODGERS SP DP DP
555 CARDWELL
556 WEIS SP DP DP
557 FERRARA
558 ORIOLES ROOKIES (BELANGER) SP
559 TRACEWSKI DP DP
560 BUNNING
561 ALOMAR
562 BLASS SP DP DP
563 ADCOCK SP
564 ASTROS ROOKIES SP DP DP
565 KRAUSSE
566 GEIGER DP DP
567 HAMILTON (YANKEES)
568 SULLIVAN SP
569 A.L. ROOKIES (CAREW) DP DP
570 WILLS
571 SHERRY
572 DEMETER
573 WHITE SOX TEAM
574 BUCHEK
575 BOSWELL
576 N.L. ROOKIES 
577 SHORT
578 BOCCABELLA
579 HENRY
580 COLAVITO
581 METS ROOKIES (SEAVER) SP
582 OWENS DP DP
583 BARKER (YANKEES)
584 PIERSALL
585 BUNKER
586 JIMENEZ SP
587 N.L. ROOKIES 
588 KLIPPSTEIN SP DP DP
589 RICKETTS DP DP
590 RICHERT
591 CLINE SP
592 N.L. ROOKIES 
593 WESTRUM
594 OSINSKI
595 ROJAS
596 CISCO SP DP DP
597 ABERNATHY SP
598 WHITE SOX ROOKIES
599 DULIBA DP DP
600 B. ROBINSON SP
601 BRYAN SP DP
602 PIZARRO
603 A'S ROOKIES SP
604 RED SOX TEAM
605 SHANNON
606 TAYLOR
607 STANLEY SP
608 CUBS ROOKIES DP DP
609 JOHN





The 7th series checklist also appeared on the 6th series press sheet, so is more abundant in theory than any other 7th series card but we'll treat it as a true high for our exercise here today.  If you look at the data you will see that 11 cards identified as short prints have no corresponding DP designator from either SCD or Beckett.  Logically, these 11 cards are the true 1967 high number short prints and they are all from the row I call SP2:

552 Savage
553 Yankees Rookies
558 Orioles Rookies (Belanger)
563 Adcock
568 Sullivan
581 Mets Rookies (Seaver)
586 Jimenez
591 Cline
597 Abernathy
603 A's Rookies
607 Stanley

Conversely, 11 cards that are in my SP1 row are Double Prints on both the SCD and Beckett lists (I suspect #601 Bryan, a Yankee, was left off the SCD list inadvertently):

534 Bauer
539 Egan
542 A's Rookies (Monday)
547 Red Sox Rookies
554 Rodgers
556 Weis
562 Blass
564 Astros Rookies
588 Klippstein
596 Cisco
601 Bryan

Then there is the curious case of the 11 cards shown as DP's in the other two lists and also on my sheet:

537 Estrada
548 Gonzalez
550 Pinson
551 Camilli
559 Tracewski
566 Geiger
569 AL Rookies (Carew)
582 Owens
589 Ricketts
599 Duliba
608 Cubs Rookies

A nice, neat 11 cards and all appearing in the row I have dubbed DP1. The next three rows (DP2, DP3, DP4) are not designated by either price guide but I have them as DP's.  Beckett, if using a partial sheet, may not have caught these and SCD just doesn't mention them.  I have them all as DP rows in order to make the Beckett sheet work,

Did you notice all three of these "odd" rows (DP1, SP1, DP2) appear as a single grouping on my sheet? Let's replicate them at the top of a theoretical second sheet:

DP1
SP1
SP2

Still, what of Brooks Robinson?




























SCD has him as an SP and the old thoughts on Brooks were based upon a vending box hoard's yield many years ago that was shy on Brooksie's.  If we presume his row (DP5 on my sheet) was not a DP row on the "Beckett" sheet, we can extrapolate the rest of the sheet:

DP2
DP3
DP4
DP5
SP1
DP1
DP2
DP3
DP4

Maybe not in that exact order and not ironclad until the second sheet turns up but the math works. This gives a final tally that you can check yourselves, of:

Rows DP1, DP2, DP3, DP4  = 4 appearances each over two sheets (16/24ths)
Row DP5 =  3 appearances over two sheets (3/24ths)
Row SP1 = 3 appearances over two sheets (3/24ths)
Row SP2 = 2 appearances over two sheets  (2/24ths)


My SP rows would not have been known by Beckett, so there are now 24 rows present and accounted for!  It may be disproven someday but right now I'm sticking with it.  As for the promised quiz-see if you can rearrange the theoretical second sheet to match what Beckett would have seen on a partial while still maintaining consistency with the list of SP's and DP's in the full 7th series list above and then have it prove out over 24 rows.

Friday, October 1, 2010

El Cuento de un Invierno

Last time out we covered the first two Venezuelan Topps sets, which probably lulled everybody down that way into thinking these sets would be annual events. Well, there was no 1961 set, perhaps due to the uncertainties associated with expansion or maybe just because no license was issued for that year. 1960's set must have sold better than the 59's merely based upon surviving examples so it remains a bit mysterious why '61 was skipped with sales ascendant.

The hiatus allowed for a bit of a retooling as well. 1962 saw the implementation of Spanish to the backs, thus making identification a lot easier. Once again 198 cards were issued but it seems they all came out at once and since they came from the first two American series' the the darker tone wood grain fronts of the second series also were on display in the Venezuelan set. As you would expect though, some particular twists were introduced.

Here is a series 1 card of a shell-shocked looking Don Larsen, with a first series Topps card following (the bottom border missed the scan on the latter):



The Venezuelan example lacks the "punch" of the US version but the lighter grain is more pronounced as a result.

The backs tell the story in two languages when compared side by side:



You can see the background color of the stats area is much pinker on the Venezuelan card. That little blob of paper is common on '62 Venezuelans by the way; it is from the wrapper and production problems during sealing led to the back card in each pack of four having some leftover residue come along for the ride. Fronts can also display this streak.

The cards from series 2 show the darker grained wood is much richer and deeper on the US version (right, or bottom depending upon your browser and screen):



The back from South America is also pinker in tone again (same order):



I think the pinker tones look much better than the muted salmon, don't you?

The last two cards of the "second" US series, 197 and 198 were not issued (Daryl Spencer and Johnny Keane got the heave-ho); instead two Venezuelan born players, Elio Chacon and Luis Aparicio were assigned numbers 199 and 200 and imported from the US 3rd series (Chacon was #256) and 4th series (Aparicio is #325 in the Topps set). Josh's Yahoogroup writeup for this set indicates cropping differences exist between the North and South American cards for these two players. But wait-there is more to the story.

1962 was the second year Topps included checklists in their sets as numbered cards. As a way of previewing their upcoming series (which did not match the checklists and was generally off by either 22 or 11 cards), Topps started putting a checklist from that series on the sheet with the prior series cards, essentially reducing 110 card series to 109 cards as printed and 88 card series to 87 on the sheets. Therefore, the second batch print run ended at #196 in 1962 but there were almost certainly two holes created when the extra checklist was pulled from each print run in Venezuela. Hence Chacon and Aparicio appeared in a neat solution to a mundane problem.

I realize I have to finish my series on the Theories of Checklist Relativity and the Series Previews soon ad they don't cover the post 1960 period!

1964 brought major changes to the Venezuelan set as a whopping 370 cards were issued. Using the same solution as in '62, the print series of 109+87+87+87 add to 370. If there is a likely year where one style was sold to cover two seasons, my guess is it would have occurred in 1964-65 but that's only idle speculation.

An album was introduced for the Venezuelan market in 1964 as well (once again, Josh has a scan) and this was when gluing of the cards, somewhat traditional in Central and South America, started in earnest. The card stock is pretty poor in '64, gloss is a distant memory and the card sizing can vary about 1/8" from the US cards sometimes. More cards probably resulted in a slight weakening of quality control.

Here are the comparative 1964 scans, fronts V to U, then backs:



There seems to be more orange in the Venezuelan color tones, frontwise.



The Spanish has disappeared but those black backs make it easy to identify a Venezuelan issue. Loco!

Another 370 card set came out in 1966, once again without Spanish backs. Organized and sold in similar fashion to the 64's, the gloss shortage has eased just ever-so-slightly but the off sized cuts remain. Thankfully, so does the excess orange in the mix as the backs make identification easy.

Fronts, then backs, South to North each time:





Josh has the intel on other differences, so go check out his Yahoogroup for more.

Next time we'll look at one of the best baseball sets ever issued in any hemisphere or country, the 1967 Venezuelan Topps set; a three-in-one killer of an issue. Estar allí o ser cuadrado!

Monday, May 31, 2010

Gray Area

As we journey into 1959, Topps was starting to standardize how they printed their baseball cards. 1958 saw a real slapdash final series (6th) and what I believe were four 110 subject printings made to look like five 88 card series prior. After their efforts to conclude that season's set, the Topps braintrust look have have really started planning out the best way to issue their cards.

I found a 66 card proof sheet on my hard drive that is the key to seeing how the 59's were printed:



You will note this block of cards spans 66 numbers, from #375 (Niemann) to #440 (Burdette). The checklists on the back of the team card in '59 would have us believe the 4th series ran from #353-429 and the 5th series from #430-495, so this group is smack dab in the middle. #495 was also the last number in the 1958 set, so I think that was an intentional move by Topps as they were going to expand the set by 77 cards for '59.

However, the high number series in 1959 was printed as a 66 card run:



identifiable by the black number block on the reverse, as well as the cream stock:



Compare this with the last card of the prior run, with a green number block and gray stock:



From #1-506 the blocks are green, as was the text; I think the black looks much better. I wonder if the ink color was changed when Topps started printing the 1959 football cards, which also have black ink and may have been a move to expedite printing of the omega and alpha series of each respective set.

The gray stock also helps us pin down the production cycle as cards 199-286 can be found with either type of stock. This once again point to a 110 subject press run to start the year, followed by an 88 subject second run to get to #198. 88 cards again through #286 and the another 88 gets us to #374. Since we know #375-440 is another run (totaling 66) then we have a 66 card gap to get us to the true high number run starting at #507. This gives us print runs as follows:

1st 110
2nd 88
3rd 88
4th 88 *
5th 66 *
6th 66 *
7th 66

I have a sneaking suspicion that Topps printed some combination of the 4th, 5th and 6th runs above together so have marked them with an asterisk but don't have the uncut sheets to prove it. They end up at at #440 though, through the "5th" run, which trues up in the real world as the previews would get get too far past the press runs otherwise. This is where they caught up in 1958 as well. I have to think a bit more about the implications of two 66 card semi-high series being printed separately.

The Checklists give us a fictional account:

1st #1-88
2nd #89-176
3rd #172-264
4th #265-352
5th #353-429
6th #430-495
7th #496-572

No matter how you look at it, the checklists on the back of the team cards showed series that only existed in the minds of the creators of the cards. Look at the 7th Series checklist to see:



Those black number blocks begin after 11 with the green blocks if you go by the official count. I do not believe those 11 cards from #496-506 were printed with the rest of the high numbers but if you are selling cards the kids are already buying those 11 before the last series comes out. Boy, I'l l bet they wanted to complete that run badly!

Here is a checklist card from the third printing (the card stock variation run):



And just for fun here is the 3rd Series checklist with an error with the two rightmost columns are transposed:



You get the idea. Topps was using the Theory of Checklist Relatvity once again but with a bit more forethought than in '58.

Wednesday, May 26, 2010

88's The Key

I thought I would continue my haphazard look at uncut Topps sheets and the 1958 printing arrays as I found this 55 card partial from the year Elvis got drafted lurking on my hard drive. There is a little bit of a tieback to the Series Preview and Checklist Relativity Theories as well!

Check out the murderer's row at the right side bottom portion of the sheet:



I believe Topps loaded up the first series with stars now that MLB was bi-coastal. That is not the most interesting thing about this sheet though. No, it does not have yellow letter variations either but what it does have is card #1 (Ted Willliams) and #110 (Johnny Logan) on the same partial sheet of 55. This clinches for me the fact Topps was previewing 22 cards from what they were calling the 2nd Series while printing at least 110 subjects on the first series sheet. I say "at least" but if I had a full sheet scan it would likely confirm 110 different cards.

See, here is a first series checklist from '58, courtesy of Doug Goodman:



See, it goes to 88!

Just for fun,here is the 2nd Series Checklist (also a Goodman scan) showing the gap at #145 where Ed Bouchee should have resided:



That would have been confusing as you had no idea what had happened or who it was supposed to be. If you do the math, you end up with five series of 88 printed over four sheets, ending at #440. A little teaser for the kiddies back in the day and some proof of my wacky theorems today!

Thursday, May 6, 2010

Triple Your Pleasure, Triple Your Fun - The Theory of Checklist Relativity Part 2 (Now With Bonus Series Preview Theory!)

In our last adventure, I left you all hanging a bit on the 58's but with good reason. There is another facet of the Theory of Checklist Relativity to be touched on, namely variations on the cards proper.

Part 1 showed us four team cards in the 1958 semi high, or fifth series with two different types of checklists on their backs. Thanks to Friend o'the Archive Doug Goodman, here is a complete run of the four checklists that give you the players in alphabetical order (well, 439 cards since #145 Ed Bouchee was pulled due to an arrest and never appeared in the set):









You will notice that those cards are out of sequence; the highest shows the low part of the alphabet and vice versa! Now I am looking at a 66 card semi high series but there is a germane question I cannot answer. Were all five first series cards printed in 88 card runs or did the first run have 110 cards in it, thereby previewing 22 cards from the next series until everything comes back together at the end of the (66 card) fifth series? Don't forget all the major price guides show a 110 card first series so the next series preview theory may be viable.

Why is this germane, you may ask? Well the four team card checklists above obviously have numerical counterparts which have a 7 or 8 times price kicker when compared to the alphabetical versions. That indicates a definite and deliberate short print pattern on the numerical backs.

If they were printed in a single series, locked in run of 88 cards (i.e. the series and the run match up excatly from one through five) then there would be three of each team card front on a 264 card master uncut sheet. Then, in a scenario where the A/B/A B/A/B pattern is at work, one 44 card batch of cards could contain the four team cards with numerical reverses. Conversely, a 66 card series run on 264 card master sheets would yield identical A/B patterns of 66 card substrate. However, a third choice presents itself.

What if Topps only planned a set of 440 cards in 1958 and then they managed to sign Stan Musial with just enough time to rush a card of him out? The alphabetical lists stop at 440, indicating finality to the planned set. Topps obviously made a big deal about signing Musial out of the regional card wilderness in 1958 (he had not appeared in a nationally distributed set since 1953 Bowman) since they advertised this fact on the four numerical team card backs from the 66 card semi high series. Finally, the '58 high numbers are readily available and do not command any significant premium, indicating a full run of cards was printed after the first 440.

If that's the case, then it seems clear they had no time nor the stable of players (there were only around 400 active roster major leaguers in 1958) to compose a full 55 card series so the braintrust at Topps came up with the Sport Magazine All Star cards so they could get Stan into the set at the last minute and also fill out the high numbers. The timing of this indicates Musial's signing had to come after the All Star selections were made in 1958. They also added 34 no-names (at the time) to the 21 All Stars to give us a 55 card high number series, most of whom had limited playing time prior and therefore required minimal stats on their cards. I admittedly have not researched the service time of each of these 34 players and don't own any '58 highs but the names don't seem to include too many veterans.

This brings us back around again to the short printed numerical backs. I think it likely that once the final 55 card series was green-lighted that the final run of semi highs resulted in a change from the alphabetical checklists to the numerical ones with the Stan Musial announcement and then maybe just one side of the full master sheet at that.

There is more to the Musial All Star card and I'll get to that in a minute but first, since the mighty Punk Rock Paint blog gave us a shout out on the checklists and I'm riffing on them while cranking out some Leatherface in homage, which always puts me in a good mood, I'll show all four numerical counterparts, even though I had one scanned last time:









Those are all courtesy of Mr. Goodman by the way.

We also know the Musial AS card was triple printed and so was the Mantle AS. How Topps did this was a bit odd and violates the 11 card row theory (boy, I gotta lotta theories, huh?) but they pulled four regular player cards and subbed in the extra prints of the Mantle and Musial All Stars. I first encountered this in the February 23, 1996 issue of Sports Collectors Digest:



Here, see for yourself:



Those three rightmost cards are the Mantle All Star:



And thanks to the miscut I believe Stan the Man resides directly below the Mick in all three columns:



That Red for AL, Blue for NL background is consistent although since the Yankees lost the '57 World Series I find it curious that the All Star Managers card has a red (AL) background but so it goes. Topps had to create slots for the triple prints so they pulled four cards. #443:



#446:



#450:



and #462:



By the way, the array of the Mantle and Musial cards seems to indicate Topps cut and packaged cards based upon the vertical columns and not the rows. Had they been horizontally focused, the triple prints would seemingly yield to poor distribution in the packs. Intriguing.

We get into some weird short print/over print scenarios with 55 cards. You could have 44 cards appearing five times and another 11 appearing four times on a 264 card master sheet, or you could have two identical sheets with 22 extra printed rows per 132 card half sheet, a possibility here given how the triple prints play out. The triple printed rows may just be the orphaned 22 card rows on each half sheet

I would also offer that, given the low price kicker on the short printed cards (only about a third more in value than a regular high number common) one half sheet may not have lost the rows with the four players shown above.

There was also some type of mail in premium in 1958 where Topps (or someone) sent out partial sheets. I wish I had better scans but I don't:





There are also variations in the low numbered cards involving team and player names being white or yellow but that is definitely fodder for another day. And don't forget the Pancho Herrera "error" card, which I think is merely the result of a printing mishap and will also have to wait for another post.